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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Okay, i think everyone here is aware that another vault release is forthcoming from the Rhino folks, and there is a camp of GD devotees who have expressed dismay at the choice of show, namely, 2/19/71. Now, personally, i am neither one way or the other, i'll either buy it or i won't. But in a previous thread, ghostofpig made an interesting/astute observation, and i won't quote, but to paraphrase, he stated that the downloading/trading community is only one segment of the larger deadhead population; now, i have no idea how many active so-called "deadheads" are out there, however, last weekend on the subway in Boston, i encountered a group of around 4-5 teenage deadheads, sporting the typical wardrobe, and it cheered me.

In other words, ghostofpig was positing that for all the naysaying among a number of the diehards who populate the forum and torrent sites here on the evil internet, there exists a larger population of "deadheads" who are quite removed from the torrents and the trading and the downloads and who purchase the commercial releases, and so, for all the complaints on the various forums, to the person coming across that "new" commercial product released by Rhino, it's rather a godsend. I happen to agree with ghostofpig (sorry man, i know you were hoping for a healthy debate!), and yet, am curious if we are off the mark. Some would think so, and so i throw it out to all you hip and knowledgeable heads for your thoughts.

And just to clarify: a number of people are stating why release a show that many already have in quality lossless via trading or bittorrent; and i am asking, will it really matter in the bigger picture what Rhino releases in terms of them making profit enough to continue releasing shows, whatever the date of the show ... well, i hope you can understand what i am asking anyway

This post was modified by Arbuthnot on 2007-06-02 00:30:18

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Just A/B a stream from the tapers section and compare it to the same shows crisp Miller, Clugston, etc SB, the difference is profound!

I cant believe aficionados will be disappointed w/Vault III.

Sure there are a ton of shows I would prefer, but after 2+ years, I happy to get it...

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Arbuthnot:
I would reply but I am neither "hip" nor "knowledgeable" -- just opinionated sometimes laced with a heavy dose of arrogance.

However, I didn't see GOP's previous post -- is there really another generation that are getting into the Grateful Dead? I know our buddie Max expressed frustration at the lack of interests amongst his peers, however that's just his experience from Southern Cal. It would be great news to know if there is actually another group of misfits that the music has captured.

"Put it down heavy, strip it down lean
Got to lay it down dirty and play it back clean"
("Fire on the Mountain")

--- AshesRising

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

There do seem to be quite a few new young Heads out there Ashes... Some of 'em look it, some don't. Just at my store our on our staff of around 40 there are 1/2 a dozen that I burn shows for, a few more that are interested and a couple that turn me onto shows. As for older Heads, most of them don't look it, I'm usually surprised by the ones I meet that "get it", pleasantly, of course...

update: I forgot to mention that most of the Heads I meet as customers are not aware of this site...

This post was modified by cush212 on 2007-06-02 05:29:30

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

cush212: Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. That is very encouraging news. I wonder how much video exists with Rhino's vault -- I hope they don't mess around with the so-called "special effects" like previous videos --or maybe they could provide an option of no "special effects" -- just the camera entirely focused on Jerry....oh,I mean, the band.... I hope your girlfriend is feelin' better and you are able to enjoy the weekend; I have begun the countdown to the 1980 Solstice shows......

Thanks again for the good news, --- AshesRising

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 1, 2007 11:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Your welcome my friend, Di is feeling much better, just can't eat butter. I do hope you are feeling better as well! Might have to make it a date for Summer Solstice 1980!!! West High, now I remember... We Grokked that one a month or two ago...Was very nice! Definitely could do it again...

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 1, 2007 11:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

I remember video cams on and around the stage all the time at West Coast shows in the 80's... Wonder what's become of that???

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Jun 2, 2007 12:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

cush212:

Wwhen Rhino bought the Vault last year somebody here in the Forum had the great insight that they probably were aware of what a goldmine the videos would be. == that could explain why there is so much delay in releasing the music --possibly the are putting a lot of resources into preparing the videos(?) (total speculation on my part)

...oh, man, I got that daily dose of the Winterland Dark Star (1973-11-11) taking me for a wonderful ride --- AshesRising

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 2, 2007 1:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Dave Nelson Trio here again... Watch for details momentarily...

;)

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Poster: JamminJerome Date: Jun 2, 2007 6:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Ah, videos...I'm willing to shell out money for quality videos. If your speculation is true, Ashes, then I'm all for it!

I won't be buying 3 from the Vault, only because I can't justify spending money on it. I don't have a lot of $ right now, and I don't love that show.

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Poster: mickmac Date: Jun 1, 2007 8:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

I'm buying it. It doesn't matter to be much what anyone else does. I am doing this so maybe when I'm dead and gone they will still think it's worth their while commercially to continue to release historic recordings by the best goddamned rock and roll band in the world. I listened to 02/19 just today and think it's a real good show and a very good recording...too bad Bird Song is cut. Maybe vault 3 will even sound better, But I would love to think that 20 years hence our next generation can go to the record store and pick up the Dead's latest release. I've got a 17 year who is slowly but surely starting to appreciate the talent that they were and I sure hope he passes it on to his children.

This post was modified by mickmac on 2007-06-02 03:55:29

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

we may represent a rather small segment of the Dead fanbase, however, most of us here have listened to so much Dead that we can be regarded on for an educated opinion and while 02-19-1971 may be a perfectly legitimate choice for the masses, it lacks imagination and is, quite honestly, a lame choice...Rhino, therefore, is not really in touch with the Dead fanbase...in the grand scheme of things, it is highly likely that what I just said is just a pile of horsepocky...but I'm not buying it, nor is anyone else I know, but I would definitely purchase better future releases...

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

hey strat, no argument from me that 2/19 isn't exactly the wisest choice for a release, and very true that they who congregate on these forums are more in touch with the value of a show's worthiness for commercial distribution, but i am trying to ascertain whether that 2/19 release, or whatever, by Rhino will make a difference in the bigger picture of the overall music buying deadhead public, just curious

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Argument from me on 2-19. That smokestack with Jerry's little slide licks alone is worth the price of admission. It is a solid show--if you like that period.

But disagreeing on what is great and what doesn't do it for you is what makes it interesting. Still, remember, just because you don't happen to like a show, that doesn't make it universally bad.

Look: they ain't gonna satisfy everyone no way and no how.

Finally--we may have heard more and talked more--but to call ourselves better judges is elitist and absurd. Bill Walton doesn't post here--is his opinion no good?

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

may i clarify GOP? i like 2/19! and yes, many already have their digital copy tucked away in their archive, or burned to disk, or on their ipod, whatever, i just don't think that what i or any who fall into the "deadhead" population who congregate these forums and torrent sites will decide the commerical failure or non-failure by our purchase or non-purchase of what Rhino releases; ack! for whatever it matters, i will probably purchase 2/19 just as i did Cow Palace and be perfectly happy with that decision; cheers

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

another thing about commercial CD's is that they are "burned" differently and last waaaaay longer than those burned on your PC. Diana Hamilton explained that
here >> http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=55867

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Exactly!

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Poster: rosey842 Date: Jun 2, 2007 9:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Can we be sure Bill Walton isn't posting as smi2les????

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Jun 2, 2007 7:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

I would imagine that it will not make a difference in the big picture. There is no question that the posters here respresent only a minute fraction of the Deadheads who visit the Archive, who in turn make up only a sliver of the general Deadhead population...i.e., a cult with a cult with a cult....

Still a lame choice, though- an off-and-on night from a notoriously uneven run. As I stated when the news broke, I'll pony up in the spirit of keeping the program going, but I won't be excited about it...where's fall '79?

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

If Rhino were smart they would find something that would please both crowds. If what GOP says is correct, then the crowd of non web users wont care what they release. I on the other hand have close to 1000 cds that I've burned and am not about to buy a show that I already have a good copy of. If they were to release something that doesnt exist in a nice board or aud, then I would be the first to pay up. Let's see something like 9-11-81 and 9-12-81 come out. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that most of these shows are not in the vault. By the way, there are so many great JGB shows that are of medicore quality that I would pay for. I wonder if these shows are locked away somehere?? Maybee Deborah Koons will start running low on cash.....

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 1, 2007 7:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

billyd ... i can't tell how lovely it would be if many of those JGB shows were released commercially, i would probably snatch up every one; which isn't to say that i am unhappy with the many great audience sources i pretty much daily listen to, but i think you'll agree, that there are many, many Jerry shows that have not seen light in the digital world!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

i'm with you man - got hudredes of boards - give me something different

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Off topic, but not a hijacking...

Package arrived safely today... Thanks Wolf, will catch up via email later on or on the morrow...

;)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

glad it arrived brother - talk to you soon man

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jun 1, 2007 10:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

I'm going to try to get Di to Grok tomorrow night... She had fun last week, even participated... I wonder if we can be different people on the same computer? All is well on your end I hope... Gotta pick something to listen too now, I've got an advance copy of the Monterey Pop Festival cd here, hmmmmmmm...


;)

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jun 1, 2007 5:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

To add to my own comments: it is clear that so many of you die hards HAVE most of what you would like to have or will dl it in the future. This really rules many of you out as active customers as you have expressed he unliklihood of purchasing what you already have. So, as unliklely customers, you are (no offense) not at the top of their list.

Who does that leave? A) Those of us who like to have official versions and the other 50,000 heads who do not post here. It's a large pond to go fishing in. We are not the fish that Rhino seeks to catch. Even though we are diehards. But as diehards, we go fishing in the great pond called the internet, so Rhino should be relatively irrelevant to us as well!

Maybe something else: 3 from the Vault is 10 years overdue. When they did the project, the archives was young--much of this wasn't out there. So, if they pick up where GDP left off, they will obviously be behind the curve.


Finally--what's left out there that is great and not available as a nice sb and was recorded in 16 glorious tracks? Only the shows recorded for various live lps are in 16 track. So we are limited by what is good enough soundwise, good enough playing wise, good enough rare wise, good enough interest wise, and we are left with very, very little to choose from. What we have are some more 1969 stuff from around the time of Live?Dead, the Spring 1971 shows (including 2-19-71), Europe 72, The 1980 Fall shows, the retirement shows (released), some 1989-90 shows---not all of the Vault meets the criteria for the Vault series. And there are plenty of clunkers in the digital years.

So: Is 2-19- a worthy show in and of itself?
Does it sound great?
Would you buy it if you didn't have it or couldn't dl it?

Can you name other 16 track shows that deserve better attention that are not already out there?

Talk about DPs--different subject, as there are many two track shows that have yet to see the light of day. The aborted Winterland 73 was 2 track. This is a different animal.

My point is that in the context of the larger pond (there are what--30 regular posters here?) of 50,000 heads, many of whom do not spend their lives downloading incessantly. They like the idea of occasional treats coming their way. Add to that those who love the earlier dead--they'll swallow it up.

be patient; surely more stuff from other 16 track runs will emerge in time. Otherwise, switch this thread to 2 track releases and talk about whether the DP series is a good one and whether they have picked good shows for that.

BTW-most of the other live releases--non DP are multitrack and really should be called From the Vault 4, 5, 6, etc. Like Hundred year Hall, Nightfall of Diamonds, etc.

And, finally, the download series seemed to be an attempt to quench the thirst for unavailable shows.

Seems to me like they are doing a good job.

Alternative? Stop the program altogether.
Alternative 2? Don't buy what you don't want.
Alternative three(My favorite)? Light up a doobie and listen to 4-17-72. Do it right now!!!!!!!

How many of you bought the F.East 2-13-14 DP or Harpur--despite already having it? They were so much better than the available tapes--I had both for years and jumpedon the Dp versions.

Back to the point. The Vault series in limited by what was done in 16 track, what were good to excellent concerts, what they think their larger audience wants to have, and what the band feels is good material as well.

Viva Vault #3!

And let's hope Vault 4 materializes and makes more of you happy!

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 1, 2007 6:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

agreed, agreed, agreed, ad infinitum with your verbose and well-argued post; i for one purchsed the Cow Palace show, even though i already had the show in decent lossless; while i can respect folks who disagree (or agree) with whatever show Rhino chooses for the next commercial release, there is this continued nagging feeling in the back of my head that whatever the opinion of we here on the forums and the torrent sites, it's just one small segment, and Rhino has to attempt to rake out a profit from more than just this one, possibly smaller, segment of the deadhead population

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Poster: BryanE Date: Jun 2, 2007 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

The group of people that participates in this forum discussion is microscopic compared to the Dead Head population as a whole, just as the number of microphone stands that could be seen in the audience at a show amounted to a few grains of sand on a beach of ticket holders. Opinions here are just about as discriminating as you will find anywhere, but I don't believe they accurately represent those of everyone who considers him or herself to be a Dead Head. There are just far too many around the world to assume that they do.

"a number of people are stating why release a show that many already have in quality lossless via trading or bittorrent; and i am asking, will it really matter in the bigger picture what Rhino releases in terms of them making profit enough to continue releasing shows"
Rhino has been in this business for decades and they are surely confident that this is a profitable move for them because, again, traders and downloaders are only a fraction of their target market, if that, but you go on to recognize that yourself later in the thread. But they would not do it in the first place if it was plainly a gamble whether they will see a substantial return.

"Those of us who like to have official versions and the other 50,000 heads who do not post here." (ghostofpig)
50,000 is far too conservative of an estimate as to the size of the target market. Add at least another zero, more like two. Is it realistic to think that many will buy? No, but at least that many are interested enough to think about it. The numbers of potential purchasers involved when even a company like Rhino which doesn't have nearly the market size as one of the more dominant corporations such as Sony, BMI, Universal, or Warner (and Rhino might be owned by one of them, but I just don't know) chooses to distribute a product like this are still very large. Just by doing this illustrates that. There is a vast multitude out there who will eagerly buy anything with the name Grateful Dead on it.

"most of us here have listened to so much Dead that we can be regarded on for an educated opinion" (stratocaster)
Quite true, if only any of us were lucky enough to be in the position to be on some kind of advisory panel. Personally, I'm probably as likely to win an Oscar, though.

"is there really another generation that are getting into the Grateful Dead?" (AshesRising)
"There do seem to be quite a few new young Heads out there Ashes" (cush)
Last night over the in-store speakers at our moonlighting job, I was playing the '91 show with Hornsby that's part of the Pure Jerry collection that you sent to me, AshesRising, and my 17-year-old nouveau hippie stepdaughter took the time after it played through to ask me what it was we'd been hearing. She liked it. I had been walking several feet behind her while How Sweet It Is was on, watching her bob her head in time with it. And I've mentioned before that she rates Throwin' Stones as her favorite Dead tune. The fact that she even has a favorite speaks for itself. And another Schwag last week with thousands of her generation on hand, albeit most of them a bit older than her, is proof of the timelessness of Grateful Dead music. There are new converts all the time. It was more than 30 years ago that I could be counted among those who were completely unaware of it one day, and, quite literally, the next was head over heels in love with it.

And finally, "most of the Heads I meet as customers are not aware of this site" (cush)
I found out about it less than a year ago myself.

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Jun 2, 2007 1:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

"The group of people that participates in this forum discussion is microscopic compared to the Dead Head population as a whole..."

i agree very much, the mathematics and just the general recognition, that despite the prevalence of computers, most people, "deadheads" included, do not spend hours upon hours on the computer; it just doesn't happen, period.

"Personally, I'm probably as likely to win an Oscar, though."

let me talk to Scorsese and see what i can do

"There are new converts all the time."

how folks think different than this is beyond me; for one thing, while yes you probably don't hear the GD music on the radio as a daily staple, or hell even weekly/monthly, the music is heard, it's the shared sort of music, the music talked about, written seriously about, discussed, explored; it's out there, and to think that we small group of forum participants and downloaders are all there are, or even that we are the majority is a complete stretch of logic, and why say something like that when it is a complete disservice and insult to the GD legacy, to actually think they were a band that would leave a diminishing soon-to-vanish host of fans, as though their contribution ranked with, oh i don't know, Poison or some other not-worth-mentioning-band that came and went and no one cares

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Poster: BryanE Date: Jun 2, 2007 2:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Regarding Deadheads: Serious Question

Just don't mention to Marty how overrated I thought Gangs of New York was.